SHOW DESCRIPTION

Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi, founder of Ferriss and Company, returns to Soul Sessions to talk about stewarding Jackson landmarks like Campbell's Bakery and Hal & Mal's, restoring the Kennington Mansion in Belhaven, and mentoring the next generation of designers through Downtown Jackson Partners' Urban Design Studio. She traces her love of historic preservation back to Babalu at Duling School and a mentorship with the late Bill Latham. The conversation covers what makes a small space feel intentional rather than just big, why Hal & Mal's still unifies Jackson across generations, and what's next for her firm — including work for the restaurant Josette, opening in Fondren this fall.

TRANSCRIPT

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INTRO

Paul

Do you remember the old restaurant Babalu in Fondren? That's where Amerigo is now, at Duling School. Well, the ceiling there still had the glue dots on it from where the tiles once hung, and instead of covering them up, the designer behind it left them right where they were. That instinct to let a space keep its history instead of erasing it has carried her from a scrappy converted schoolhouse restaurant into one of Jackson's most recognizable design voices.

Hey, it's Paul Wolf with a front row seat to conversations on culture from Jackson, Mississippi. We call our podcast Soul Sessions. It's the people, places, and events that make the City With Soul shine. On today's show, we're catching up with Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi, founder of Ferriss and Company, back for her second appearance to talk about stewarding Campbell's Bakery and Hal & Mal's with her husband Damien, restoring the Kennington Mansion in Belhaven, and helping shape Downtown Jackson Partners' new Urban Design Studio. A conversation built around a lesson she picked up early from mentor Bill Latham. Sometimes the most interesting detail in the room is the one you decide not to fix.

Welcome, Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi, to Soul Sessions.

Mary Sanders

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Paul

You were one of our very first guests in season one. I think like episode two, maybe? Something like that.

Mary Sanders

I don't remember the exact episode, but it is one of my favorite ones I've ever done, with Scott.

Paul

Artist Scott Allen, yes, was also your co-guest on that one. That was a good one. You two have worked together a lot, haven't you?

Mary Sanders

We have. We've worked together for a long time at this point, and I'm still bugging him for random things for projects every day. He's a good partner in design crime.

Paul

Well, we're gonna fast forward back to the future, six years after your first appearance on this podcast, and you've been musing a lot lately on your Instagram account. I think you're getting kind of nostalgic for the city that you call home. And so I was looking at your Instagram post about downtown and you wrote that you've roamed these streets in love with every corner since your Millsaps years. Interviewed for your first job at the old Edison Walthall, took your wedding photos on top of the Plaza Building. So I want to know, what is it about downtown Jackson that just gets under your skin that way? And if someone moved here tomorrow, where would you send them to feel that same kind of energy?

What Makes Downtown Jackson Feel Like Home to Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi?

Mary Sanders

Yeah, you know, somebody asked me the same question yesterday. I wish that I had a really amazing answer for it. I personally love historic buildings and old spaces and reimagining things. And I think downtowns naturally have that. And there's something about our downtown that, even from when I was younger, there was always kind of opportunity. Like at that time, at Millsaps time, the King Edward was completely boarded up. And I would just drive around and think about what downtown could really be. I also really love the community that's down here. I think the people that are down here right now really love where they are, and that I think is really important. There's just a lot of opportunity for interesting spaces. We've got Smith Park, we've got all the museums. There's a lot of culture down here. So I think that for me, that's kind of the heart of culture in the city — and really, a lot in Mississippi. So yeah, I've always ended up down here and have always loved it. And it really did kind of inspire me becoming a designer. So I think in that way I also have a little bit of a soft spot for it as well.

Paul

Yeah, I read this on your Instagram too — I know you think I'm stalking you there — but you said places like this can't be built. They have to be cared for and stewarded for. So where do you think that instinct came from? And when did you first realize you had it?

Why Historic Preservation Matters: Lessons from Growing Up in an Old House

Mary Sanders

I think, I mean, honestly, I grew up in an old house. I like to fix things, and that can be a variety of stuff. The history that is in old buildings — not only can you not replicate the actual architectural details in today's age, but the history that has come before you — to just tear that down and build something new seems very wasteful. And I think a lot about that in buildings, I think a lot about that in furniture. I mean, my entire life has been kind of like a vintage antique hunt. And I guess apparently no buildings. But I think the reality is you have to take care of that. That's why things like the National Trust exist for preservation. I think that's why you see archives of history really caring for their buildings and what they're doing moving forward, and how they encourage development through historic tax credits. I think we all know that it is expensive sometimes to care for old buildings, but at the same time, the quality — and what exists — again, it can't be replicated. So I've always loved it. Like I said, it doesn't even occur to me that other people don't think the way I do. And I love it. It's like when you walk into a house that's for sale — some people can see the potential, and other people walk around and go, "Yeah, I just don't understand."

Yeah, I love renovation work. And honestly, I like renovations so much more than I love brand new spaces, because I do think there's something about taking something that's old and making it new again. Somebody called me the other day about a house that needed to be renovated. And I guess, you know, people aren't doing it as much as they were. So I think that it's important. You want things to have character, you want things to have charm. And I think that's important.

Paul

Well, you're a multi-hyphenate. You mentioned restorations and interior design and product design and brand management and business development. But speaking of doing things with charming spaces — you've said Babaloo at Duling School was where you really cut your teeth in the restaurant world. What did that project teach you about building a space that people actually want to linger in?

How Babalu at Duling School Shaped Mary Sanders' Approach to Restaurant Design

Mary Sanders

It's funny — I was having this conversation with my husband the other day. I think that nostalgia is really important to people, whether they know that they're remembering something specific, but they just know it gives them a certain feeling. And the great thing about Babaloo was it was in an old school. It was an adaptive reuse space. And I think there were details within that space that we tried to somewhat maintain, even as simple as the way the windows in that space really gave it a level of character. I used to talk a lot about how the ceilings had the glue dots from where the tiles fell down, and everybody kept asking me, "What's this really cool ceiling detail?" And I was like, "It's actually not a detail. It's the choice to not cover it up." I think that space was one of the first places where I really learned the importance of how people feel in a restaurant, and working with Bill — that was a lesson every day in the restaurant industry, and how people interact with spaces, and also just restaurants in general. And so I think that really started my love for restaurants, as really something I think about. I mean, I should have a "What would Bill Latham do" bracelet. I think about what he would do all the time.

Paul

Bill Latham, Babalu days — RIP to Bill and to Babalu as well. I miss that place every day. I really do.

Mary Sanders

I know, me too.

Paul

Mary Sanders, you've described your approach as finding beauty in small, ordinary things. I know even in your own home, you've painted rooms black, built around a fireplace with just two chairs. What draws you to that idea, that a small space can feel bigger or richer when it's given intention?

Designing Small Spaces with Character, Not Just Trying to Make Them Feel Bigger

Mary Sanders

I think we have this tendency to think small spaces need to be — we've got to paint them white because it's got to make it feel bigger. And the reality is a small space is never going to feel big. That's just not going to happen. And so if you can play into the coziness of a small space, you can do that with color. You can do that with ceiling heights. You can do that with drapery. There's all kinds of ways you can do that. I think you just embrace what it is and play off of that, and that's honestly kind of how I approach a lot of design in general. And I think that's when I talk about liking renovations in old spaces — you look at what exists and what it could be. But you don't want to — I used to say you don't want to feel like you're in Disney World. You don't want to feel like you walk into this fantasy land that doesn't match what's on the outside. And I think that's important — that the space scale, the exterior and the interior, all reflect the original intent of the building. It doesn't mean you can't modernize it, because my house is over a hundred years old, but I still have modern fixtures in it. However, I embrace the pieces that are historic to the building.

Paul

Yeah, you talked about your husband Damien Cavicchi earlier, and the two of you came in and bought Campbell's Bakery and then Hal & Mal's, and then you added The Walk-In to Hal & Mal's on the far side. It used to literally be the walk-in cooler for that railroad depot there. When you both did that, you called it a bet on the city's future. You know, Hal & Mal's has such a reputation — it's a place where you might come to catch a band or a meal or a mayor or a musician, and some of that might actually happen all at the same table. So what did you see in those places that made you want to preserve that kind of heart while still reimagining what comes next?

Saving Hal & Mal's: Damien and Mary Sanders Cavicchi's Bet on Downtown Jackson

Mary Sanders

Really, Damien was the one that saw Campbell's — a little bit of both. I mean, I had always loved Hal & Mal's and Campbell's, but I think I was probably a little bit closer to them because I grew up here and I knew them for so long. And the idea of trying to step into Malcolm White's shoes feels almost impossible. So when the opportunity came up for both of them, he was the one that said, "Let's take a look and let's see what these could be." I think Hal & Mal's is such an important building in downtown. I've always loved Commerce Street, outside of just the downtown corridor. And I think to have lost that for the city would have been really sad, especially at that time. So for us, it was really trying to preserve the idea of Hal & Mal's, but I think we're still kind of working through how you move it into the future. The Walk-In was definitely one component. What we're doing with event spaces is another component. The trail is now coming behind us, so we're trying to think about how to interact with that. But specifically for me, it was not wanting to lose something that was so important to two generations of Jacksonians.

And I think with Damien it was intriguing, because he grew up in New Orleans — we joke about always wanting grit and culture, and it had all of those things. And I think the walk-in has been a huge success for the business. There are times the walk-in does better than the dining room. It's brought a whole new clientele downtown. It kind of created something that was missing in the market. And we knew we had to do that if we were going to get people from the tri-county area to come to downtown for a night — it had to be something that was kind of intriguing, something they wanted to see. And I think we've been able to do that.

Paul

It's a fantastic place with a fantastic menu, and it really has become the hip hangout for the younger crowd. But then, I mean, you really see people of all ages there, don't you?

Why Hal & Mal's Feels Like Jackson's Melting Pot

Mary Sanders

Yeah. I mean, that is — again, I said this yesterday — it's one of my favorite things about Hal & Mal's, is you see every type of person there. Everybody from a twenty-two-year-old will be sitting next to a sixty-five-year-old at the bar, people from different backgrounds. It really does — I don't know why it does it, I don't know what part of it unifies the city in a lot of ways, but I love that piece of it. And I think that's something that was part of the history, and that we really think is important to continue to shepherd into the future, because we want to make sure that we are a good melting pot for the city of Jackson. And so I think, again, the walk-in has done that with young people, the way we cultivate and curate different types of shows, it does that. And I've always said the building feels best when there's multiple things happening in the building — the building actually feels alive. And that is the best feeling in the world. So that's always our goal — we don't just like it when just the dining room is open. We like a lot of things happening at once.

Paul

Back in your neighborhood of Belhaven, I know you worked on the Kennington Mansion project, and that was something that sounds like it was kind of personal for you, because you said you'd always dreamed of buying that house. So what was it like getting to know that building — one that you'd admired from outside for so long?

Restoring the Kennington Mansion in Belhaven

Mary Sanders

Yeah, it's such a beautiful home. I had done some work for the previous owners in their pool house, and really — at Belhaven, during Bright Lights, I used to walk through the backyard to get to the front. So I was always kind of like, "What is this amazing place?" Telling a story of what the [FLAG: "Kennington" — confirm spelling of mansion/family name] was for downtown and for the city, through the design in that space, was really fun. The client kind of trusted me. When we talked about what their goal was with the building, I was like, "This is not something I'm going to be able to just present to you. This is something I'm going to have to go out and find — shop, estate sales, antique markets." And so we did that, and it really did come together kind of how we envisioned it, because we didn't have a complete vision going in, but we knew the feel we wanted. It hit all my high notes.

Paul

You have worked on so many projects all over the country, really, but here all over town — a laundry list of places that you've worked on. But is there a moment from any one of these projects where you've seen your philosophy come to be? And that is that making the guest happy is ultimately what makes the clients happy?

What Makes a Design Project Successful? Mary Sanders on Guest Experience and Branding

Mary Sanders

True. That's a great question. I would like to think that I do that in a lot of them. But I will say there have been times I've learned lessons. I've definitely had projects where I didn't fully know a client, and so I just designed what I thought would make sense, early on in my career here. And some of those, I feel like, didn't hit the mark in the same way our newer stuff does a lot of times. It's always so important to me that the brand piece is such a big thing. And when I say brand, I mean every component, not just a logo. If I can hit all the notes where the guest understands what the owner was trying to convey, and all of that goes together in the right way — some of my favorite times is sitting in the restaurant during opening and hearing people say, "I don't feel like I'm in Jackson," or noticing little details. Like at Fine and Dandy, we had two (William) Dunlap dogs underneath this old painting of a hamburger, and there was a playfulness to that. That was something people would comment on time and time again. And I think if we're creating details that customers notice but that tell a story, then we're doing it right. So I don't know that there's one specific project, but that's always kind of my goal, and when I feel like I've hit the mark correctly.

Paul

Mary Sanders, you are intimately involved with the future of Jackson, and specifically downtown Jackson, where you have businesses. I know you're on the board for Downtown Jackson Partners and have been involved with the new Urban Design Studio in the Heritage Building on Capitol Street. So what does it mean when you start thinking about handing the reins over to young leaders, young graduates, the future of downtown — kind of thinking about what it could be? How do you view your role in the shepherding and stewardship of that process?

The Urban Design Studio: Mentoring Jackson's Next Generation of Designers

Mary Sanders

Yeah, so if we're talking about the Urban Studio specifically, that was a project modeled off some projects done in other cities — Chattanooga and Detroit. And Josh McManus — , who you've had on the show before, had done those in these other cities. So he had a bit of a tweak of an idea that ended up working in downtown Jackson. And the goal with these is really bringing the students together and having them help solve problems, but also see opportunities in downtown that maybe we're not seeing because we're — I don't want to say jaded, but we're just busy doing the things we do all the time. So when we built the Urban Studio, one of the things that was important was that we made it a flexible space, a space that students would enjoy being in. But also, at the time — and this makes me insane — we didn't really know what we were doing with the space exactly, because it's up to the students to decide what's happening. So it was about creating something that was movable and flexible, and helped them have vision into what a space could be — that was a really important part of building that space. And I'm excited about the young people who've been in and out of the studio so far. I'm hopeful I can be of help if needed, or get out of their way if needed. But I think there will be some good stuff that comes out of it. As far as how I feel about shepherding them into the next chapter, I'm happy to be here as a sounding board, but I also want people to have good creative ideas and things that maybe we wouldn't think about. I'm excited to see what they come up with.

Paul

What's on the horizon for Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi? Any big projects in the works you can give us a glimpse into?

What's Next for Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi and Ferriss and Company

Mary Sanders

Yeah. From a Ferriss and Company perspective, we've got Josette, a restaurant going into Fondren in the fall — we've been working on that for the last few months. The Living Room, a nail salon going into Banner Hall — I think that's gonna open probably in September or October, I hate saying dates. We just finished Aplos, obviously a Jackson brand, but it's growing, and it's opening in Oxford. And we've got some ideas outside of Ferriss and Company specifically — we're working on something on Commerce Street to help unify the businesses there and create an area that connects to the trail. And we're thinking about some things to do with the Big Room and how we get that to connect into the trail. So we've got some things cooking. Nothing's exactly ironed out yet, but I imagine there will be some new additions in the next twelve months, like on Commerce Street in some way.

Paul

That is Mary Sanders Ferriss Cavicchi, whose story is about the discipline of leaving well enough alone. She talked about resisting the urge to paint every small room white just to make it feel bigger, choosing instead to lean into the coziness with color and character. And she talked about why Hal & Mal's feels most alive when a twenty-two-year-old and a sixty-five-year-old end up at the same bar. That mixing — that's the point. It's not an accident.

This fall, keep an eye out for Josette, which she designed, opening up in Fondren, along with the Living Room nail salon coming to Banner Hall, plus her work on Commerce Street near Hal & Mal's. We'll have links in our show notes to Mary Sanders' work at visitjackson.com/soul-sessions.

Soul Sessions comes to you from Visit Jackson, the destination organization for Jackson, Mississippi, the City With Soul. Our executive producers are Jonathan Pettis and Dr. Rickey Thigpen, and I'm Paul Wolf, managing editor and host for these conversations. Keep up with everything happening in the City with Soul at our website, visitjackson.com. And if you have a question about Jackson or a story idea you'd like for us to explore, send it my way — it's pwolf@visitjackson.com.

Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you next time.

Listen to previous episodes of Soul Sessions