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Paul:

Some foods transcend trend. They become part of the fabric of a place, woven into Friday night routines, birthday celebrations, or late-night cravings. In Jackson, two of those foods are pizza and barbecue, the kind of American favorites that bring people together that taste exactly like they should. They keep families coming back year after year.

Hey, it's Paul Wolf with a front row seat to Conversations on Culture from Jackson, Mississippi. We call our podcast Soul Sessions.

It's the people, places and events that make the city with soul shine. On today's show, we're talking American favorite classic foods with two people who've built their restaurants around it. Jeff Good is the owner of Sal and Mookie's New York Pizza and Ice Cream Joint at The District at Eastover in LeFleur East. Since 2007, he's been making New York-style pizza in Jackson. Fresh dough every day, the kind of slice that folds just perfectly. And Scott Jackson, he's a founding partner of The Pig and Pint in Fondren. A sommelier by trade who got into the restaurant business, Scott was part of the crew that opened The Pig and Pint in 2014, bringing chef-driven barbecue, craft beer, and a whole lot of nostalgia to a neighborhood spot that now draws people from all over the world.

One's honoring New York pizza tradition in Mississippi. The other is reimagining barbecue classics, smoked bologna sandwiches, pork rind nachos, Pepsi Cola glazed ribs, but both understand that great food is about more than just what's on the plate. It's about consistency, about community, and about exceeding expectations.

Let's start with Jeff Good at Sal and Mookie's.

So New York style pizza kind of has this reputation, right? People say you can't get the real thing outside of New York because of the water, the ovens, the tradition.

You've been making New York-style pizza in Jackson since 2005?

Jeff:

2007. Opened April of 2007.

Paul:

So what's your take on that then? Can you make authentic New York style pizza in Mississippi?

Jeff:

Well, we, we have a tagline, you know, it's a New York pizza without the attitude. So maybe we don't have the water. We don't have the people we don't, know, the oven. The oven and the dough are the two key things that we worked on. We actually, when he mentioned 2005, it was 2006 when four of us flew up to New York and spent a long weekend there and ate at 14 different pizza places. our lead chef at that point, John Pixler did not like to fly. And so I actually brought back 14 slices of pizza and coolers on the plane so he could try things out.

When we were up in New York, we really were trying to focus on the style of dough we wanted to present. You can go street side in New York and get a slice and it can be extremely flat and somewhat crispy, or you can get something that's got a little more bumper and a little floppier. We went with the bumper and the flop and then the flavor profile for that. And then also the oven. So we found a brick oven manufacturer out of New Jersey called Marcel & Sons, and we purchased four of their deck ovens, pretty expensive items. But if you're going to make something that's authentic, you need to make sure you've got the tool to do it. So we're very proud of those, that equipment. What is it? 18 years later, 19 coming up, 19 years, the ovens are still working. We have, I think we've really perfected that, that dough manufacturer. And we've been able to transfer that to our, our, our sister restaurant that's up in Madison and the, and the work that Patrick and Hallie are doing up there.

So to answer your question, I think we do a great representation. Got a online review two weeks ago from a guy from New York that said, I am super impressed. This is, it's not false advertising. This is really good pizza and pizza, know, so, so personal, Paul. I mean, we all have our likes and our dislikes. We're just trying to do, you know, tasty authentic product that people like.

Paul:

You've mentioned that dough a couple of times now. So walk me through what that commitment means to make that dough fresh every single day, not just the process, but why it really matters for the operation.

Jeff:

You have to make dough 24 hours ahead of time. So everything is in a rolling format. You have to make the dough and it needs to be able to rest in its form state. So you're going to, you're going to make it. You're going let it rise a little bit. You're going to punch it down. You're going to cut it. You're going to form it into its balls. We'll do a 14-inch ball and an 18-inch ball. And then you, you, you place in dough boxes and you put it in refrigeration and you let it retard. And that is a cooking term that is a concentration of flavors in a cold environment that allows the sugar and the yeast slowly to start to create a little bit of fermentation. You're not in a warm environment, you're not in humid environment, we're trying to make something rise and it's puffing up and it's gonna need to go somewhere. And if you don't do that, the glutens don't have a chance to really relax and work out, so you get a nasty dough. So there is a process to it. And we're lucky that we've got great men and women that are dedicated to the cause and at night while we're serving you out front, somebody's in the back making dough for tomorrow.

Paul:

I've known you for a long time. And I know that what you have created there and your team has created with Sal and Mookie’s is a gathering place. It's a place for birthday parties and little league celebrations, family dinners, first dates. Did you set out to create that intentionally or did it just happen organically?

Jeff:

Absolutely. I learned a lot from Broad Street. I learned about the power of a space for community. And when we put together the idea for Sal and Mookie’s, we talked about this idea of an ice cream experience, an ice cream parlor that would be tied into a pizzeria so that a family could have a full experience of everything I just mentioned about, you know, the awe at the table. And then also, you know, have fried ravioli or great chicken wings, or if you want to get a burger and, and hand cut fries, I mean, all that, just, just a delicious indulgent meal. And then at the very end, to be able to stand up and go up to a wonderland of 24 types of ice cream and all sorts of toppings and the like, and get a custom treat to take back to your table and enjoy. To be active in that, to be able to be part of making a decision on what you eat, to be able to point out, give those kids the chance to get on those pull-up rails and see it and engage with somebody. That was my intention. And I think we nailed it. We've done a great job of creating an environment for that. Because eating is entertainment. And I think that all of us that are in the hospitality and tourism business understand that there's that you can drive through fast food to get some sustenance when you're busy and you're doing something on the road. But if you're, if you're taking family, friends, or business relationships out, if you're joining someone for an experience, the more layers of excitement, the better. And then if you can do it for a reasonable price and do it with hopefully consistent service, you can do something that has longevity. And I think that as we knock off 18 years here, think we've, we've, we've stood the test of time that we have something that people like.

Paul:

Yeah. You've built something with Sal and Mookie's and your other two restaurants, BRAVO! and Broad Street that, especially Sal and Mookie's, guess it honors tradition, right? A New York tradition, but you've made them completely Jackson. I can't imagine Sal and Mookie's really being the place it is without having Jackson attached to it. How do you think about that balance about respecting where the pizza came from while at the same time making it homegrown?

Jeff:

Let's, let's be honest. My origin story is that Dan and I, Dan Blumenthal, who is the, partner in the business for, the first 29 years of the business, he and I created all these concepts together. Neither of us are from New York. So we don't have a family tradition there. Dan had family ties to Trenton, New Jersey, which shows up in the Hamilton Avenue upside-down pizza. And Broad Street is very much tied into his family history. You know, the original concept there. But for, for New York pizza, Jackson, Mississippi for Sal and Mookie’s, we said to ourselves, what can we do to honor, to honor New York and make it ours? So the name Sal and Mookie’s meant something that comes from the movie, Do the Right Thing, the Spike Lee movie about the pizzeria, Sal's famous, located in Bedstuy and the importance to the neighborhood of that establishment. And Sal was the pizzeria owner and Mookie was the pizza delivery boy. And the two of them and their relationship is quite a great story. And we thought those were great names and it was a great homage to New York. So Sal and Mookie's New York pizza and ice cream joint. So then how do we make it Jackson?

If you remember where we were originally, we're in Fondren. We took over what was The Woodlands and before that it was, it was Jubilee, before that it was a Huddle House steak and egg, that kind of thing. We remodeled it and created a visually stimulating, really, really cool environment. And then we did the children's carnival partnering with the UMC and the children's, the Children's Hospital and behind us in that big green space that, that we would populate with games, you know, things that we made with our own hands and all sorts of vendors to do things and music and the like. We did a pizza eating contest and ice cream eating contest and 3000 people would show up every year in the spring and we would have a rites of spring. And we did this as a gift for $1 a person that, you know, that all of this would be yours. And that's how, you know, I think we, we, we have always worked like so many great restaurants owners and managers and people that are in our industry. think each of us try to find our way to nuzzle up next to our community and offer more than just food, but to offer support and to offer engagement. So I think that we wanted to bring an exceptional product set to market. We wanted to do it in a way that was very kid-friendly and supportive of families. The idea is that this is a place where you talk to your family and you spend time with them. It's a constant, you know, it's the food, it's the service, it's the people. Yeah, it's a great industry. And just always thankful to have folks like you and Visit Jackson supporting us. It means a great deal.

Paul:

Jeff Good at Sal and Mookie's, making New York style pizza in Jackson for almost 20 years. Fresh dough every day, a gathering place where consistency and tradition matter. There's something about what Jeff does that's rooted in honoring where pizza comes from while making it feel right here at home. Pizza is about tradition. It's about doing it the same way every time so people know what they're getting.

There's another approach to these American classics, one that takes the classics and reimagines them, that plays with the nostalgia while creating something entirely new. That's what Scott Jackson has been doing since 2014 at The Pig & Pint in Fondren.

Scott, you're a sommelier by trade, but you're running a barbecue restaurant. mean, how did that happen? What brought you into the barbecue world?

Scott:

Well, back in 2012, I grabbed ahold of Andy Cook, who at the time owned the Parker house restaurant and we had been discussing some options for him. And I grabbed him after Sante South one night and I said, ‘Hey man, just close that place down and let's go do our own thing.’ And he whipped his head around and he said, ‘Holy cow, I was thinking the same thing.’ And so we started talking and we, decided we wanted to form a restaurant group and open about four new concepts for the Jackson market. And as it turns out, the first one was barbecue and Andy and Grant Hutcheson had been involved with a competition barbecue team on the Memphis circuit. And they won a lot of awards and we thought let's bring competition barbecue to the masses. So I had an idea to sort of make it a little more chef-driven, and I took the guys down to New Orleans and we looked around, there was a spot I wanted to show them that I love called Cochan Butcher right behind Cochan. I love the fact that they do fresh sandwiches, oftentimes made with some of their own charcuterie and that sort of thing. And, and so we wanted to incorporate that into a Mississippi core barbecue concept. And the fact that we all came from the fine dining world, I think, uh, helps us in that we, have a, a real sort of demanding attention to detail when it comes to the food and the service. And Chris does such a great job with with the service because we all, we used to crumb tables and, serve wine in white tablecloth restaurants. And so I think it, I think it helps.

Paul:

Yeah. It's quite a difference from where you've come from. And also something to think about the menu at The Pig & PInt is quite different from many barbecue restaurants. You all have a smoked baloney sandwich, you pork rind nachos. And one of my favorites, the Pepsi-Cola glazed ribs. How do you think about taking barbecue classics and doing something different with them? I mean, what's the philosophy behind that?

Scott:

We wanted to do a competition style barbecue, take some of the things that they were winning awards with and bring it to the masses. And that's hard to do. It's hard to replicate, a competition style to scale, you know, because you have to pay so much close attention to what you're doing. Again, the fact that we wanted to add a chef-driven component into it and have some signature dishes on there that were maybe outside of the barbecue genre a little bit. And so, that's how the menu came about.

Paul:

We mentioned that smoke baloney sandwich Food Network has called it the state's best breakfast sandwich and you guys don't even serve breakfast. So what is it about that sandwich that connects with people and why has that become such a big hit?

Scott:

Yeah, that was a little puzzling, I guess, because it has an egg on it. It qualifies as breakfast, but you know, everything's homemade, at The Pig and Pint. So we, we make that baloney back there in the, in the kitchen and, it's made with pork shoulder and no, no, pieces and parts, they say in the, food world about things like hot dogs and baloney. So it's a very good product, and it's homemade.

Paul:

You're in Fondren. You're playing Delta blues, serving craft beer and getting customers from all over the world who want to experience Mississippi. I mean, that's a big responsibility to shoulder to be a representation for the whole state. Isn't it? It is.

Scott:

Yeah. I’m constantly amazed at the people I meet from all over the world. And of course we bring a lot of people here for the blues. lot of the blues are very popular in Europe. So we, see it, you know, people from all over Europe all the time. Uh, but I think, um, the, the fact that if you're, um, if you're in Jackson, Mississippi, you're sort of at the crossroads of the South. And, uh, if you live anywhere between Dallas and, uh, let's say Southern Illinois, and you're going to the beach in the summertime, you're driving through Jackson. And so we get, we get folks from all over the place. That was some great stories.

Paul:

Share some of those with me!

Scott:

Well, I was visiting in the restaurant with a couple from Santa Barbara, California last summer. You know, I say, ‘How did you, how did you find us?’ They said, ‘Well, we saw you on the Food Network and we were going to New Orleans for Jazz Fest and we thought we've got to go to that place.’ And so they drove up from New Orleans just to eat The Pig & Pint. Just crazy stuff like that. You know, I once talked to someone from Seattle who saw a guy in a bar in Seattle with a Pig & PInt t-shirt on and they said, ‘Hey, we're looking for a place down South to, to, to buy land and build a cabin on.’ And then he said, ‘Go check out the central Mississippi area. And they did. They came by The Pig & Pint.

Paul:

Well, funny enough, I was in Pasadena last year and our Uber driver, when he found out we were from Jackson mentioned his favorite restaurant in Jackson, Mississippi. And I kind of thought I knew what he might say. And I said, ‘You're not going to mention The Pig & Pint, are you?’ And he lit up. I thought he was going to crash the car, but he had friends here in Jackson and The Pig & Pint, he had been there. He had enjoyed it. And he said, ‘I tell everybody about that place.

Scott:

Yeah. I mean, I was in Telluride a couple of years ago and, and we're driving from the airport to tell your ride and stop to get something to eat. So we had an eating all day and, had my Pig & Pint trucker hat on and from across the bar, hear someone yell ‘Pig & Pint!’ and they had been, you know, they had visited here and, gone to The Pig & Pint and from just running to random people all the time. So it's great for us.

Paul:

Scott, what do want people to feel when they eat at The Pig & Pint, what experience are you trying to create?

Scott:

I’d like people to feel a little bit nostalgic. You mentioned the baloney sandwich. That's one of the things sometimes we do, like a brisket sloppy joe. And so I think we want people to kind of feel a little bit nostalgic about the great things they've had in their past comfort food, if you will. And then the other part of that is sort of that. We want people to feel like they're having something a little bit special too. And, I think we're in a, we're in a great price point because you can easily trade down from a $80 bone in ribeye at a fine dining joint and into a piece of, uh, slow smoked artfully crafted brisket. And you feel like you're, you're, you're getting your, your beef fix at a fraction of the price. So, you know, we want it to feel special, but we also would like for it to feel nostalgic. think.

Paul:

And a point of personal privilege. I'll say some of the best barbecue I've ever had in my life.

Scott:

Thank you, man. We appreciate it. Every time you're in.

Paul:

Jeff Good at Sal and Mookie’s and Scott Jackson at The Pig & Pint, two different approaches to American favorites, but the same commitment to getting it right. One honors tradition through consistency, making the same great New York-style pizza the same way for almost 20 years. The other honors tradition through reinvention, taking barbecue classics and giving them a chef-driven twist. Both understand that American classics aren't just about nostalgia. It's about feeding expectations, creating gathering places and making people happy. That's what keeps people coming back, slice after slice, plate after plate, year after year.

Food lovers JXN Food and Wine is March 20th through 22nd. We'd love to see you there. The event will feature chefs from around the city, state, region, and country showcasing the best in food and beverage over three days. You can get your tickets now. We'll have links in our show notes to this and to Sal and Mookie’s and the Pig and Pint at visitjackson.com/soulsessions.

This podcast is produced by Visit Jackson, the destination organization for Mississippi's capital city. Our executive producers are Jonathan Pettus and Dr. Ricky Thigpen, and I'm our managing editor. You can learn more about all of the great things happening in Jackson at our website. It's visitjackson.com.

I'm Paul Wolf and you've been listening to Soul Sessions.

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